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NYC – Kamil Needs Some Help
Nikon – Aperture and War Against Bit-twiddling
Just a quick follow-up post regarding a bunch of email conversations I have had regarding my last post about what me, me, me wants in the next version of Aperture. I have engaged in a number of interesting and not so interesting conversations regarding that post. I cannot begin to cover all of them at the moment but I had so many regarding my number one issue, NEF RAW processing, that I thought I would share a couple thoughts.
First I had about the same number of emails that agreed with my dissatisfaction as asked me what I was so upset about. Here is the bottom line for all of those out there asking what I am so upset about Aperture’s continued NEF horribleness. One word – COLOR. A picture is worth a thousand words so here are a couple.
The image at the top of the post is every single relevant in camera image control of a so-so camera compared to the latest greatest, the D200, set at normal, normal, normal, etc. So this means that Capture NX2 does nothing to soup up the image – this as “normal” as it gets using the default NX2 RAW conversion. Other shooting details Auto WB, ISO 1600, first thing that caught my eye hand held not even steady about 5 minutes ago.
Here is the default Aperture RAW conversion
Here is the NX2 conversion with one thing changed – a Nikon Picture Control set to vivid.
If you are asking what’s the big deal? Download the images and look at them side by side. Most of you can probably see the huge difference in the thumbnails. Which one is the crappiest? The Aperture default conversion. Why is it a big deal that it is crappy? My most succinct answers are as follows:
- A lot of this is caused by a huge difference in WB and there is no easy way to make a universal correction to any one camera let alone a universal correction across a couple of different NEF files produced by different camera models. Every different lighting temperature takes a completely different set of adjustments. Even if there was a good way to set this as an incremental set of change the WB by X amount for a single NEF file type it wouldn’t matter because Aperture seems to “guess” differently on every image seeming to ignore WB settings. This really sucks for both Auto WB people that shoot in lighting that is all over the map as well as preset WB people that use a specific camera setting under multiple different controlled lighting conditions. I swear figuring this out is way worse to get good predictable color than when I shot film and had to figure out filtration/lights/gels for a new film. Or it’s about the same if you want consistent results without bit twiddling to get there.
- Even with WB set dead neutral on the same target and the same lighting color is way way way off in ways so strange that it is extremely difficult to correct with one set of preset color adjustments – no it isn’t just different – it is wrong. Tie this in with the WB situation and you have to fool around a lot to get good color. Not brighter, not more saturated, good color. Apple – get the freaking WB and color right for NEF’s or I am definitely outta here.
The other thing that I continue to whine about is picture control. Now I cannot take full advantage of Nikon picture control without using NX2 but I can get real close using ACR in it’s present incarnation. I think I have explained this before but I will do it again briefly for those that are not familiar. Nikon picture control is way more than a couple of presets. They are profiles that are applied either in-camera to the JPG’s and are recored as metadata in the RAW file that gets interpreted and applied in NX2 but it does not end there. Picture control settings match across bodies. Yep if I take my old D2 series cameras and apply a Nikon picture control to the NEF files the color and contrast are virtually identical to my brand new D3 with the same picture control. Great concept. If you don’t care for the built in picture controls you can make your own, upload them to newer cameras if you want (you don’t have to if you shoot RAW) and voila your own color/tone curves that are completely reproducable across all NEF’s, very very cool. If you have a newer camera they will even be applied in-camera to the JPG’s.
Adobe thought this was cool to so now ACR has camera profiles. You can’t upload them to the camera but they work in concept the same way. To prove that they work they give you the exact same “camera profiles” for NEF files that Nikon supplies as “picture controls” and they match unbelievably closely. Yep they match across Nikon camera bodies as well. Theoretically you could actually create a custom camera profile across different brands as well. It is way more work than creating a picture control because you have to do all the work but it is possible.
If Adobe can do it then so can Apple or at least match the freaking WB and default color response. As a Nikon shooter this is getting really really old. Maybe some more regarding some other conversations that were generated by that post as well as my current existential crisis tomorrow.
Any questions?
RB
For the couple of people that have asked “what the heck are those things”. They are from top left to bottom right:
An adjustable bellows pro-shade, a 45* prism finder (no meter), an A12 film back, a Zeiss 80mm Planar, a Zeiss 150mm CFi Sonnar, and a Zeiss 50mm Distagon FLE CFi
Translation a bunch of medium format junk.
RB
RB, thanks a ton for this post. All this time, I thought that it was me or the camera. Seems Aperture was at fault the whole time. Looking at the images above, it seems there is a contrast issue as the Aperture pic looks “washed out” more gray than black in some instances.
One quick question, if we agree that Aperture’s RAW processing sucks, what is your work flow? Capture NX and then into Aperture as a tiff or png? Just shoot jpg’s and hope for the best?
I’ll blow the dust off of NX2 and check the results with some of my firefighting pics.
Thanks a ton for blowing the lid off this!!!!
Just did my own test. I opened the NEF in NX2 and then saved as a tiff using the default conversion. I imported this into Aperture. Using the “Create Version from Master” I created and untouched version in Aperture to compare the differences.
All I can say is I have to come up with a new work flow using NX2 (or shoot jpg) until Apple gets this fixed (if ever).
For anyone interested in my comparison the gallery address is: http://gallery.me.com/vettepilot427#100049
WMVFD 05-09 1of1 is the NX2 version. WMVFD 05-09 350 of 689 Version 2 is the Aperture default.
Jason,
I actually have a couple of more upbeat posts on NEF files, Lightroom, and Aperture on the site just search for NEF but….
I always shoot RAW+JPG, disk space does not matter to me. In some situations I use JPGs, in some controlled lighting and color situations I have presets that make NEF’s look like I want them to look within Aperture and in some situations I have a funky script to automate my RAW->NX2->16bit Tiff->Aperture work-flow. This is not for the Aperture newbie and if you do not have a lot of other stuff that Aperture actually does for you (ie. you are a basic user) Lightroom with the camera presets will give you results so close to NX2 that you can barely tell the difference (You can’t really tell the difference and what difference there is does not matter one bit)
Ps. I still would be interested in taking a look at your NEF – the D700 has some strange stuff going on with Aperture that I would love to get to the bottom of)
RB
I so agree with you RB. What’s frustrating is seeing the camera generated previews in Aperture, switching out of Quick Preview mode and stand there watching your pictures go from pretty darn good to “ok, gotta work on this”. I’m used to it, I deal with it, but even though I end up with good results I know the color and contrast isn’t what it could be. Highlights also get messed up a bit in the process.
There’s no way I’m ready to go the NX>Tiff>Aperture route. And I’d rather cut my right arm than switch to LR. But AP3 HAS to deal with all these issues.
One bright point: I remember reading a post from someone at Nikon in Apple’s Aperture forum a few months back. It was a discussion about this very topic (I think you might’ve been part of it too) and, without going into NDA specifics, that person strongly hinted at a collaboration between Apple and Nikon regarding AP3.
Here’s hoping man…
Jade,
NX2 is not so bad, neither is LR2.
As you know my bias is Aperture in every way but it’s handling of NEF files. That is why I continue to use it but it is coming to a point where the amount of time Aperture saves me gets balanced out in the time I have to waste on bit-twiddling different kind of NEF files. I am actually having a bit of a crisis at the moment – Just sold my D3′s with the intent of purchasing a D3X and a D700 but have been sitting on my hands doing nothing. I actually have been shooting with my old D2h’s and D200′s for the last 2 weeks and have a bunch of mixed feelings on dropping the dough (even though it is break even). I actually think that subconciously I do not feel like coaxing Aperture into decent color for new bodies. I used to get this way every time I had to change film back in the day. I looked at it as all pain, no gain.
Now – If we could have NX2 quality NEF processing, with Nik’s/NX2 non-destructive control points, a generalized picture control/camera profiles for Aperture and all that is wonderful about the Aperture UI – count me in. I may be the only person in the universe that loves the built-in viveza in NX2 (I am sure I am not alone) the only thing that Aperture does a better job on in my opinion is with the Hightlight/Shadows tool – better than anything else out there. (of course active D lighting is a different story).
RB
This is a bummer man – especially the auto WB not working correctly.
On the other side of the fence (canon) – Aperture provides a much better Default Raw representation of my 5d2 files than ACR does – I would like some sort of camera profile implementation, but the default decode is so good that I usually only need to move 2 or 3 sliders a little bit and I’m done.
I wonder what sort of voodoo is going on in the NEF file format that the apple team hasn’t been able to reverse engineer.
MB,
I wish it was as simple as auto WB – it’s WB period with cascading color issues from there. I can fix most situations (some images are so forked I don’t even bother to deal with the intellectual exercise) I am just sick of dealing with it with no way to apply a general fix across images/new camera bodies for so many years.
RB
MB,
One other thing – IF I were a Canon shooter I would not have many complaints but I am not and probably won’t be – I like and am so used to Nikon bodies and the way that they handle (esp the pro bodies) that I will not switch. I also happen to like the way Nikon color and other image characteristics look. I have always felt that Canon images looked too much like PS digital images (lots-o-noise reduction with overly aggressive edge sharpening to obliterate fine detail and give the impression of sharpness) but hey that is what most images (esp of people) look like today. All a matter of taste I guess. Not a disparagement by any means – both companies make great products and I am sure glad both of them are still standing and innovating.
w/o Canon Nikon would have never gotten of it’s ass with auto focus in the 80′s and 90′s or digital in the 2000′s or large sensors, etc.
w/o Nikon upping the ante Canon would probably be stuck at the terribleness that was the original 1D/1Ds only using more plastic.
God help me – I just got an automated msg from the Apple forum that they deleted a post I put up there that linked to a couple of file management articles of mine “Due to the fact that I make a profit” from the posted links. You have to be kidding me. Fuck this let them answer this guys questions – good luck. Has anyone ever ever ever seen a fucking blog with less adverts than mine? Anyone? With about 300,000 hits in 2009 I have made like a grand total of $4.19 or something. Hmmm come to think of it I cannot remember ever seeing a link on the Apple forum that pointed anywhere outside Apple that didn’t have some sort of commercial bent. I wonder if it has something to do with my last two posts?
RB
I found the thread I was thinking of – I’m on my ipod so forgive me for not including the link. Michael Rubin senior mgr at Nikon said it wasn’t by chance that Apple had P5000 cameras at Macworld. So maybe there’s hope yet.
I love control point tech as well. I first used it in NX1 and now use it in viveza… TIFFs galore. I also just went through the LR2 demo period and while there are many things I’m hoping to see in the AP3, it’s not enough to make me switch. Yet. Hopefully I won’t need to. I’m sure Apple are well aware of what they need to do and the importance of this next release.
The forum moderators on the other hand…
If you can get that piece of garbage NX2 to run well, run quickly and run without burps or crashes more power to you. There are too many people cursing that app than I can count, and it’s all Nikon’s fault. (Nik provided the U-Point code, everything else is Nikon’s work.) I’ll NEVER use NX again, but since LR reverse-engineered the PicControls it’s just one more reason for me to consider switching from Aperture.
I’m willing to wait until July to see what Apple comes out with. (Rumor is they’re going to release ‘Pro’ app updates at the same time, probably around or just after next month’s WWDC.) But if I don’t see local RAW adjustments, better printing and improved RAW then I’ll export out my RAWs to LR.
I’m a new owner of a Nikon D300 since two weeks ago and ever since I have tried all kind of demos of Aperture, LR, NX2 and even Capture One.
First I liked Aperture, but when I looked at the result of my pictures after they were “processed†through Aperture and the compared the “processed†photos “developed†through NX2, NX2 was the winner. Aperture wins easy if I only consider the UI, since NX2 has an awful UI (IMHO).
When I tried LR and Capture One, I liked the result of Capture One most, but I never figured out how to export or save the picture after I had “processed†it through C1. The LR is so-so, not bad at all, but not my first choice. Have a kind of suspiciousness regarding Adobe and their applications, ever since the abounded an application some years ago and replaced it with another identical application and refused owners of the first application to upgrade for a lesser price than the new price was. I do not think they are friendly to their customers (but who are today?).
If Apple does not fix the flaws with the help of the new upcoming Aperture 3, I’ll probably use NX2 or the LR2 (can get it cheap by an academic discount).
Peter,
I know a heck of a lot of Nikon shooters besides you and me that are really frustrated with the Aperture NEF White Balance color thing. I cannot believe this does not come up at Apple all the time. My dream is an Aperture with a RAW engine that is as good as it is now but fixes the WB NEF color issues, has Viveza/Nik/NX2 control points built-in like NX2 does and really great DNG support including camera profiles. This would be the killer.
RB
[...] as I switch the Preview button off. Of course this will vary depending on the camera you use, but Nikon decoding is pretty off the mark, especially with blues. I know these settings are proprietary but if Adobe can get that close, [...]
RB –
Appreciate your posts…actually got me to go back and fire-up Aperture again. Remembered what I enjoyed about it and ordered the version 2 upgrade…then, I read this post and was reminded of what frustrated me about Aperture. New version is to arrive today and while I will not abandon my plans of its use (for now)…I agree the NEF conversion must improve.
As a side note, you may be able to fool others about the medium format “junk” but not me…some very nice glass.
I’m reassured to find it’s not me… I’m a mac/aperture newcomer, was LR2 before and I’ve been going nuts with Aperture’s RAW conversion. I always shoot on Neutral with my D300 and the previews look good till Aperture steps in. With low light shots (backstage at shows, that type of thing) they all end up looking like they’ve been run through a film grain simulator in the shadow areas and the contrast gets completely out of hand and colors are hypersaturated. While waiting for something like the current ACR presets, any suggestions (besides shelling out for NX2…)?
Also, and not wanting to get too off topic, how do you manage your NEF/Jpegs? Do you autostack them on import or have them in separate folders/albums?
Thanks a lot.
Andrew,
I have NX2, I muddle through with some adjustment tweaks that I apply to all of my NEF files after playing with it for a long time.
And lastly – I have a three key thing that I do to deal with RAW+JPG that I have published here a couple of times – search for it.
RB
RB,
thanks for your reply.
So do you mean NX2->Tiff->Aperture?
I found the article on RAW+JPG, thanks a lot.
Andrew –
I do not use NX2 – tiff – Aperture as a matter of course for anything but….
Every once in a while on very specific shots I will export the RAW from Aperture – work on it in NX2 and then import the tiff into Aperture again. I do this infrequently and it is really a one off kind of thing when I need or want something very specific that NX2 RAW conversion does.
Keep in mind NX2 pretty much has Viveza built in to it and you can use it as an external editor for any image in Aperture (if you set up Aperture to export 16bit tiff, you still have to go through the convolutions I described to use it for NEF RAW) and it is only about $119 if you look around for it.
RB